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[Shiba Naomi]

*shrug* To make things interesting, because there was disagreement if a woman should rule or the oldest (but illegimate) son, because Toturi didn't say which one was his heir and Kaede couldn't make a decision (after having being made the heir and messed things up) because she was an Oracle.

All in all, a messy situation because of many factors... one of the big ones, imo, was the division between an illegimate child of a geisha (who was older than the others) and the oldest legitimate daughter.

[Kakita Sugita]

yeah... I just don't see why there was a division. The word 'illegitimate' says everything.

[Shiba Naomi]

yeah... I just don't see why there was a division. The word 'illegitimate' says everything.

Who was, as confirmed by an Oracle (and the Empress), the child of the late Emperor. That made Kaneka's lineage acknowledged, thus, he had something he could claim.
That's how the setting works, as laid out in various books written for the RPG.

[Kakita Sugita]

That point of the word illegitimate is that they're recognized buy not entitled. Knowing their lineage doesn't mean they get anything for it. It was beyond Kaneka's right to claim anything, as he was illegitimate.

[Ichiro Yakusoku]

That point of the word illegitimate is that they're recognized buy not entitled. Knowing their lineage doesn't mean they get anything for it. It was beyond Kaneka's right to claim anything, as he was illegitimate.

This isn't setting accurate. If you're a child of a samurai and, lets say, a non-samurai (as such was the case w/ Kaneka), the samurai's status (per Way of the Wolf page 20 and other sources), overrides the status of the non-samurai. As far as the Celestial Order, Rokugan, etc. is concerned, if you have a samurai parent, you are a samurai... and that's your parent. Given that they are your parent, you are entitled to whatever inheritance is coming your way as their child. Kaneka was the first-born son. Thus he had a valid claim upon the throne that some questioned due to his illegitimacy. However, he never would've been capable of pursuing it, or even being acknowledged as a member of the samurai caste, if not for the fact that Toturi being his father did indeed validate both his samurai status and inheritance claims.

Works much the same in the Unicorn with their gaijin marriages. A child born of a Unicorn samurai and a gaijin is considered to be a samurai.

[Kakita Sugita]

Way of the Unicorn disagrees. They've got a specific rite, created by Shinjo, that the gaijin go through to be accepted as Samurai so that the marriage is between two Samurai. Which means that the children are born of two Samurai.

And if what you say is true, why was Kaneka only a Ronin? If a child has a right to their one parent's things, they have a right to their name too. That isn't the case at all.

[Yoritomo Kaito]

Probably because Kaneka didn't know he was toturi's son until he was around 20 and didn't announce himself until several years later. Which when proven he was toturi's son Matsu Nimuro offered to give him the lion clan championship. Which I think is when he got the Akodo family name aka Akodo Toturi

[Ichiro Yakusoku]

The Blood Rite is not always performed prior to marriage. Often it is but in a case in which the child is born prior to said rite, the child would have samurai status. The child is never considered gaijin because a child born of even a single samurai parent is considered samurai.

As far as Kaneka was concerned, he made the choice to find his own way (per the L5R wiki). The Lion Champion offered to step down to offer him that position as Akodo Toturi's first born son. Kaneka said no. Meanwhile, Toturi had yet to have the chance to acknowledge him himself as they had never actually interacted. At Toturi's funeral, Kaneka was accepted/acknowledged by Toturi's family as a legit Imperial heir. This is further proven by the fact that he was allowed to attend the Imperial Winter Court at Kyuden Miya, validating his position as an heir to other parties. This is where we end up getting the Scorpion, Mantis and Unicorn beginning to put support behind Kaneka as the one who should inherit the throne.

So why didn't Kaneka just stroll in, claim his name, and take the place over? Its never been explicitly stated but it seems from his actions up until that point that he wanted to carve his own path.

[Kakita Sugita]

lol

If he was an official, legitimate heir, then he wouldn't be given a choice. Everyone would proclaim him Emperor and it'd be up to him to deal with it or abdicate. I can't get behind illegitimate children being entitled. It would completely screw up a feudal system, which Rokugan most definitely is. Systems like that the world over, of any race, creed, religion, etc... had the same idea. It wasn't just because they felt like it.

[Ichiro Yakusoku]

Get behind it or not, its how it works in the setting. We're not arguing theoretical stuff here. You may disagree with it, and I completely respect that because your Rokugan may vary, but the books have shown flat out that a child of a samurai and a non-samurai is considered a member of the samurai caste. Kaneka was acknowledged as an Imperial Heir and potential heir to the throne once his lineage was proven, for just this reason.

Really, this is no different from arguing something like 'should the Spider be a Great Clan?' (and NO I don't want to actually have this argument). If the setting says they are, then they are. We can disagree with it or dislike it all we want but that doesn't change what's written in the books.

[Usagi Zenko]

The whole issue with kaneka, is that Toturi died while on his way to talk to him. There was the strong possibility that he was going to legitimize him, and so the Empire was in turmoil about who was going to get the job.

[Mirumoto Tomoe]

I think it was more politics Sugita. Those against Kaneka were looking for any excuse. It is hinted at in all the books that many samurai will pursue relationships outside of their marriage and a good deal will even have mistresses. Sometimes they would become pregnant rather than the wife but this could be reconciled by hiding the wife for a few months and then showing the newborn baby and announcing it is hers. Basically it's frowned upon to be a child from outside of marriage as it is considered wrong for a samurai to produce from non-samurai stock - they aren't in the same place on the celestial ladder afterall. However, as much as it is frowned upon and may lead to gossiping or what have you, it doesn't stop the child from being entitled to the same rights as any other samurai child, say from two samurai parents.

You are following an argument now which is Rokugan is Japan as you are trying to justify Kaneka's lack of heritage by references to real life feudal systems. Sure, it would have screwed them over but it is explicitly stated in the fluff that a child born from a samurai and geisha or a ronin and peasant is still a samurai - L5R is different. Also, there have been many times in history when a king or nobleman has had his way with a servant or mistress and produced a child and then that child was announced as being their legitimate child, usually by the method above of saying the child came from the wife properly. Sure it can mess up ruling systems but the setting is explicit that it is accepted. So it really came down to politics. Many samurai did not like this unknown element who appeared, claimed to be the oldest yet nobody had heard of him... plus he was the son of a geisha so maybe he was more peasant minded than samurai minded. Etc. The gossiping began!

[Kakita Sugita]

I never ever said Rokugan is Japan. Words, keep yours out of my mouth. Thank you.

It isn't gossiping you have to worry about. It is offending the other family. It goes from marrying your daughter to someone important thinking your grandchildren will inherit to having some baseborn nobody come in and steal your deal. Not cool. Wars start over that kind of thing. Also, it does not say in many books that Samurai <3 having affairs. It does say in many books that it does happen and that they'd best be very very careful from then on. Kakita Korihime for example. Had a bastard. Was stripped of status and put under house arrest for the rest of her life. Child is no more than a Ji-Samurai, even after both sides acknowledged her. And that is the daughter of a Kenshinzen and head Kakita Academy sensei.

Honestly, the fluff can't even agree with itself. At least it isn't as bad as White Wolf, but it is still bad at it.

[Yoritomo Kaito]

On a somewhat related note to all this War's are cool in a rp sense. I don't play a rpg to sit around and talk all day about nothing in particular. I play it because there is action drama and a storyline I can get behind. Simply put always doing the best thing or the smartest thing doesn't create drama. A RPG without drama to me isn't worth playing and a book without a conflict point is dull.

Yes stuff like illegitimate children can create wars and conflict does it have to no? Truth be told I've seen examples of both in l5r because it has to do with how people react as individuals as well as how a clan reacts to such things. It's not the fluff not agreeing with itself its the fluff being what it should be fluff. Stories about things that happen across the empire that show how humans interact with each other.

[Mirumoto Tomoe]

I never said you said that either, merely that you "ah but it works this way in real life!" line of argument was along those lines. It's not putting words in your mouth. It is interpreting them and their implications

[Volsung]

Alright everybody. This is your friendly GM reminder that we enjoy civil discussions and find them fascinating but you have to keep them civil.

[Kakita Sugita]

I was referring to parallels. England and the Sassanid Kingdom were both feudal systems. I'd never say they were the same, but there are definite parallels. In Rokugani fiction, we're told it is at the base level a typical feudal system. Which is good because there would be a lot left out if we didn't have that base point. It also means you can, and should, make comparisons from real life things. Because that is exactly what Rokugan is based off of.

[Yoritomo Kaito]

I could bring up the differences between real life and fiction and the problems with drawing the parallels between the two but at this point I really think this conversation point should be dropped. It's come to the point where little to nothing will be gained by furthering this conversation and that we should go on to new and exciting things


Like puppies

I like puppies.

[Kakita Sugita]

My City

[Yasuki Himiko]

I like puppies!

I get to see mine tomorrow when I get home from college! Excitement!